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	<title>Comments for ClimateSight</title>
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	<link>http://climatesight.org</link>
	<description>Climate science and the public</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 06 Feb 2012 20:04:06 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on How do climate models work? by Ben Winchester</title>
		<link>http://climatesight.org/2012/01/20/how-do-climate-models-work/#comment-8164</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ben Winchester]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Feb 2012 20:04:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climatesight.wordpress.com/?p=1746#comment-8164</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hmm. I&#039;d say that Fortran is easier to for a research scientist to learn and use than C, and the array operations are both fast and efficient. Newer versions of Fortran also have some object-oriented features. Overall, I think Fortran is often a better choice for researchers than C. 

~computer scientist turned mathematician turned materials scientist, working in phase-field modelling]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm. I&#8217;d say that Fortran is easier to for a research scientist to learn and use than C, and the array operations are both fast and efficient. Newer versions of Fortran also have some object-oriented features. Overall, I think Fortran is often a better choice for researchers than C. </p>
<p>~computer scientist turned mathematician turned materials scientist, working in phase-field modelling</p>
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		<title>Comment on How much is most? by dana1981</title>
		<link>http://climatesight.org/2012/01/31/how-much-is-most/#comment-8163</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[dana1981]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Feb 2012 19:17:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climatesight.org/?p=1751#comment-8163</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There are two key numbers in doing climate action cost/benefit analyses.  One is the discount rate (discussed by a few commenters here), which I think is rather subjective, but generally ranges from 2 to 5%.  Stern used 1.4%, which some have criticized as too low, whereas Nordhaus has (at least in some recent research) used 5%, which could certainly be criticized as too high.
http://www.skepticalscience.com/correction-to-true-cost-of-coal-power-mmn11.html

From what I&#039;ve seen, 2-3% is the most generally-accepted discount rate range.  I think governments often use 3%.

The second key number is the social cost of carbon, which is basically an estimate of the direct effects of carbon emissions on the economy, but also depends on the discount rate (higher discount rate means less effective future economic cost, and thus lower social cost of carbon).
http://www.skepticalscience.com/monckton-myth-11-carbon-pricing-costs-vs-benefits.html

I think Nordhaus tends to be quite conservative on both values.  The first link above compares recent papers by economists Epstein and Nordhaus (and co-authors).  Epstein&#039;s social cost of carbon estimate was about 4 times higher than used in the Nordhaus paper ($7.36 vs. $30 per ton of CO2).  Some have argued that even Epstein&#039;s social cost of carbon estimate is far too low.
http://www.e3network.org/papers/Climate_Risks_and_Carbon_Prices_executive_summary+full_report+comments.pdf

U.S. government agencies generally estimate it at between $19 and $68 per ton of CO2, consistent with the Epstein estimate.  $7 per ton of CO2 is certainly at the low end of plausible values.  Depite being so conservative, Nordhaus argues for taking action to address climate change by putting a price on carbon emissions.  That says a lot - there&#039;s just no economic justifcation for failing to take action to reduce CO2 emissions.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are two key numbers in doing climate action cost/benefit analyses.  One is the discount rate (discussed by a few commenters here), which I think is rather subjective, but generally ranges from 2 to 5%.  Stern used 1.4%, which some have criticized as too low, whereas Nordhaus has (at least in some recent research) used 5%, which could certainly be criticized as too high.<br />
<a href="http://www.skepticalscience.com/correction-to-true-cost-of-coal-power-mmn11.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.skepticalscience.com/correction-to-true-cost-of-coal-power-mmn11.html</a></p>
<p>From what I&#8217;ve seen, 2-3% is the most generally-accepted discount rate range.  I think governments often use 3%.</p>
<p>The second key number is the social cost of carbon, which is basically an estimate of the direct effects of carbon emissions on the economy, but also depends on the discount rate (higher discount rate means less effective future economic cost, and thus lower social cost of carbon).<br />
<a href="http://www.skepticalscience.com/monckton-myth-11-carbon-pricing-costs-vs-benefits.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.skepticalscience.com/monckton-myth-11-carbon-pricing-costs-vs-benefits.html</a></p>
<p>I think Nordhaus tends to be quite conservative on both values.  The first link above compares recent papers by economists Epstein and Nordhaus (and co-authors).  Epstein&#8217;s social cost of carbon estimate was about 4 times higher than used in the Nordhaus paper ($7.36 vs. $30 per ton of CO2).  Some have argued that even Epstein&#8217;s social cost of carbon estimate is far too low.<br />
<a href="http://www.e3network.org/papers/Climate_Risks_and_Carbon_Prices_executive_summary+full_report+comments.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.e3network.org/papers/Climate_Risks_and_Carbon_Prices_executive_summary+full_report+comments.pdf</a></p>
<p>U.S. government agencies generally estimate it at between $19 and $68 per ton of CO2, consistent with the Epstein estimate.  $7 per ton of CO2 is certainly at the low end of plausible values.  Depite being so conservative, Nordhaus argues for taking action to address climate change by putting a price on carbon emissions.  That says a lot &#8211; there&#8217;s just no economic justifcation for failing to take action to reduce CO2 emissions.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Breaching the Mainstream by Paul Handover</title>
		<link>http://climatesight.org/2012/02/05/breaching-the-mainstream/#comment-8162</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Handover]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Feb 2012 18:21:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climatesight.org/?p=1765#comment-8162</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Fabulous.  Thanks.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fabulous.  Thanks.</p>
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		<title>Comment on How much is most? by chrisd3</title>
		<link>http://climatesight.org/2012/01/31/how-much-is-most/#comment-8161</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[chrisd3]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Feb 2012 18:20:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climatesight.org/?p=1751#comment-8161</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Gerald, your phrase &quot;only theory&quot; is pretty revealing. Theory is what science aspires to. Theory is what you end up with when your hypotheses are confirmed and there is broad agreement among experts that you&#039;ve provided an accurate and correct explanation for observations. In science, it doesn&#039;t get any better than that. 

Sorry, but people who say, &quot;Well, it&#039;s only a theory&quot; typically don&#039;t have a very firms grasp on what science is and how it works.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gerald, your phrase &#8220;only theory&#8221; is pretty revealing. Theory is what science aspires to. Theory is what you end up with when your hypotheses are confirmed and there is broad agreement among experts that you&#8217;ve provided an accurate and correct explanation for observations. In science, it doesn&#8217;t get any better than that. </p>
<p>Sorry, but people who say, &#8220;Well, it&#8217;s only a theory&#8221; typically don&#8217;t have a very firms grasp on what science is and how it works.</p>
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		<title>Comment on How much is most? by Martin Lack</title>
		<link>http://climatesight.org/2012/01/31/how-much-is-most/#comment-8160</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Martin Lack]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Feb 2012 17:58:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climatesight.org/?p=1751#comment-8160</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Gerald, I know it is not considered to be good form to indulge in self-publicity but, if no-one did it there would be a lot less people on prime-time television! :-)  

Therefore, having spent a long time thinking through why it is that so many people find it so hard to shake of their so-called &lt;em&gt;&quot;scepticism&quot;&lt;/em&gt; regarding climate science, I have managed to reduce my answer to just &lt;strong&gt;104 words&lt;/strong&gt;.  You will find these in the footnote to today&#039;s post on my blog:
&lt;a href=&quot;http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/2012/02/06/climate-science-in-a-nut-fragment/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Climate science in a nut fragment&lt;/a&gt;

I would also recommend reading the discussion between me and a certain John Kosowski in the comments section; although you may have to skim over those by John - as he writes much but says very little (IMHO).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gerald, I know it is not considered to be good form to indulge in self-publicity but, if no-one did it there would be a lot less people on prime-time television! :-)  </p>
<p>Therefore, having spent a long time thinking through why it is that so many people find it so hard to shake of their so-called <em>&#8220;scepticism&#8221;</em> regarding climate science, I have managed to reduce my answer to just <strong>104 words</strong>.  You will find these in the footnote to today&#8217;s post on my blog:<br />
<a href="http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/2012/02/06/climate-science-in-a-nut-fragment/" rel="nofollow">Climate science in a nut fragment</a></p>
<p>I would also recommend reading the discussion between me and a certain John Kosowski in the comments section; although you may have to skim over those by John &#8211; as he writes much but says very little (IMHO).</p>
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		<title>Comment on How much is most? by climatesight</title>
		<link>http://climatesight.org/2012/01/31/how-much-is-most/#comment-8159</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[climatesight]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Feb 2012 17:35:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climatesight.org/?p=1751#comment-8159</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You have a very eccentric idea of what science is.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You have a very eccentric idea of what science is.</p>
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		<title>Comment on How much is most? by Martin Vermeer</title>
		<link>http://climatesight.org/2012/01/31/how-much-is-most/#comment-8157</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Martin Vermeer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Feb 2012 16:09:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climatesight.org/?p=1751#comment-8157</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;
In turn, others have criticized Nordhaus for under-valuing the welfare of future generations.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Nathan yes I&#039;ve heard that too, and that critique seems a bit unfair. I have a positive impression of Nordhaus&#039; intellectual integrity.

Instead, his argument is apparently that of &quot;tactical spending alternatives&quot;: when you have a certain amount of money to use, you may use it 
1) to mitigate (i.e., prevent part of) climate change by spending it now, or
2) invest it productively, so you&#039;ll have more resources to work with when the time comes to adapt to the change you didn&#039;t prevent.

There is no valuing, even implied, of the welfare of future generations compared to today&#039;s.

If course it is fair to say that questions come to mind to using this approach, like
1) not all impacts of climate change offer the alternatives of mitigation and adaptation; for some, the alternatives are mitigation and suffering. The more severe the projected climate change, the larger this part is likely to be. How does the monetary equivalence for &quot;suffering&quot; -- a trivial example, the loss of coastal wetlands and their enjoyment as outdoor environment -- behave as GDP goes up?
2) Prices will change within the economy when GDP goes up. E.g., &quot;on-the-spot products&quot; like houses will get relatively more expensive, being not as readily automatable/outsourcable. Many adaptation tools like levees, or the transfer of infrastructure to higher ground, or keeping desertifying regions viable for agriculture, are of this nature.

I&#039;m certainly no economist, but I hope the real ones know what they are doing :-)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
In turn, others have criticized Nordhaus for under-valuing the welfare of future generations.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Nathan yes I&#8217;ve heard that too, and that critique seems a bit unfair. I have a positive impression of Nordhaus&#8217; intellectual integrity.</p>
<p>Instead, his argument is apparently that of &#8220;tactical spending alternatives&#8221;: when you have a certain amount of money to use, you may use it<br />
1) to mitigate (i.e., prevent part of) climate change by spending it now, or<br />
2) invest it productively, so you&#8217;ll have more resources to work with when the time comes to adapt to the change you didn&#8217;t prevent.</p>
<p>There is no valuing, even implied, of the welfare of future generations compared to today&#8217;s.</p>
<p>If course it is fair to say that questions come to mind to using this approach, like<br />
1) not all impacts of climate change offer the alternatives of mitigation and adaptation; for some, the alternatives are mitigation and suffering. The more severe the projected climate change, the larger this part is likely to be. How does the monetary equivalence for &#8220;suffering&#8221; &#8212; a trivial example, the loss of coastal wetlands and their enjoyment as outdoor environment &#8212; behave as GDP goes up?<br />
2) Prices will change within the economy when GDP goes up. E.g., &#8220;on-the-spot products&#8221; like houses will get relatively more expensive, being not as readily automatable/outsourcable. Many adaptation tools like levees, or the transfer of infrastructure to higher ground, or keeping desertifying regions viable for agriculture, are of this nature.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m certainly no economist, but I hope the real ones know what they are doing :-)</p>
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		<title>Comment on How much is most? by Gerald Machnee</title>
		<link>http://climatesight.org/2012/01/31/how-much-is-most/#comment-8156</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gerald Machnee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Feb 2012 15:47:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climatesight.org/?p=1751#comment-8156</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No, I am not looking for 0% error. I am looking for some semblance of a scientific measurement, but see none, only theory, modelling, and estimates.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, I am not looking for 0% error. I am looking for some semblance of a scientific measurement, but see none, only theory, modelling, and estimates.</p>
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		<title>Comment on How much is most? by chrisd3</title>
		<link>http://climatesight.org/2012/01/31/how-much-is-most/#comment-8155</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[chrisd3]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Feb 2012 11:59:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climatesight.org/?p=1751#comment-8155</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sure.

The chart shows the global temperature data since 1980 from HadCRU, which is a joint effort by the British Met Office&#039;s Hadley Centre and the University of East Angli&#039;s Climatic Research Unit--so it&#039;s HadCRU, not FadCRU.

There are several other global temperature data sets I could have used. They all show very similar trends, but I showed HadCRU because that&#039;s the one referenced by the Daily Mail article you linked to.

The red line is the monthly average temperature for each month from January 1980 to the most recently available, which is currently December, 2011. The green line is the least-squares linear trend for the same period. It shows that on average over that period, the temperature is increasing at about 1.5 degrees C per century.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure.</p>
<p>The chart shows the global temperature data since 1980 from HadCRU, which is a joint effort by the British Met Office&#8217;s Hadley Centre and the University of East Angli&#8217;s Climatic Research Unit&#8211;so it&#8217;s HadCRU, not FadCRU.</p>
<p>There are several other global temperature data sets I could have used. They all show very similar trends, but I showed HadCRU because that&#8217;s the one referenced by the Daily Mail article you linked to.</p>
<p>The red line is the monthly average temperature for each month from January 1980 to the most recently available, which is currently December, 2011. The green line is the least-squares linear trend for the same period. It shows that on average over that period, the temperature is increasing at about 1.5 degrees C per century.</p>
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		<title>Comment on How much is most? by climatesight</title>
		<link>http://climatesight.org/2012/01/31/how-much-is-most/#comment-8153</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[climatesight]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Feb 2012 06:45:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climatesight.org/?p=1751#comment-8153</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You are looking for 0% error. That does not happen in science.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are looking for 0% error. That does not happen in science.</p>
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